Wind noise and buffering in Hyundai Palisade

[saxman242]

Look at the panel gaps in the area I circled versus the X7. There is soooo much variance in that leading edge. The more I look at this the more obvious it is.These are just poorly built. The seal behind that area has no chance of holding back 70mph winds, let alone the pressure waves generated by crosswinds. The same area on the X7 has super tight tolerances and you can’t get a toothpick in the gap because there’s a thick rubber seal guarding it. I can jam a pencil in the Hyundai hole. Hell, I may have just solved it!

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There definitely isn't 70mph wind bearing down on the seal there (that's actually a low pressure area), however, I wouldn't be surprised if air at the leading edge of the door is involved. The way the seals transition from the door frame seal to the window seal in that area doesn't inspire me with confidence. My suspicion is either in that area or the pivot hinge of the mirror (rather than the mounting surface of the mirror) is letting air down into the door assembly. Third possibilty is that the mirror assembly itself is causing buffeting against the window. That could probably be addressed with some vortices generators on the mirror hosing nearest the body. That scoop on the leading edge of the x7 mirror isn't there just for decoration.


Buffeting due to weird geometry features isn't uncommon. The weird headlight design on the early Nissan leaf is a result of wind noise due to wind interaction with the mirrors. The lights generate a vortex that changes the flow across the mirror body.

 

[CVP33]

Actually you’re wrong about that. Go read up on the A pillar area, especially the area I have circled in my attached picture. It’s the highest area of pressure on the car itself with a conical vortex created that travels up past the window and expands towards the roof. Expands means speeds up, expands means it was also highly pressurized. Expansion also generates noise....wind noise. This is more perceptible because that’s where humans tend to have their ears located. If engineers don’t get this part right, well, you have a Hyundai Palisade. I’ve read WAY to much about this, I suggest you do the same. I was prepared to go to court so I was doing homework. LOL

You must know by now if you don’t share facts I’m going to call you out. Like Bob Baker, 7% off MSRP deals and Yelp ratings that you cull through to make 1 dealer look bad and ignore your own dealer’s ratings. By now this forum knows I’m a straight shooter and your “facts” are suspect. Seriously though saxy go read up on A pillar flow characteristics, it’s absolutely fascinating. Once you know, its almost like the Hyundai Palisade was built to fail. Again sorry I had to call you out on all that but you didn’t have your facts straight.

Now for a prediction. Hyundai is not going to fix the wind noise for any existing owners of 2020 Palisades. 2021‘s should have the fix, whatever it is, 2020 owners are goosed. There’s no way I could know this, but now that it’s out there in the ether, I’ll come back in 6 months and see if I’m right.

There definitely isn't 70mph wind bearing down on the seal there (that's actually a low pressure area), however, I wouldn't be surprised if air at the leading edge of the door is involved. The way the seals transition from the door frame seal to the window seal in that area doesn't inspire me with confidence. My suspicion is either in that area or the pivot hinge of the mirror (rather than the mounting surface of the mirror) is letting air down into the door assembly. Third possibilty is that the mirror assembly itself is causing buffeting against the window. That could probably be addressed with some vortices generators on the mirror hosing nearest the body. That scoop on the leading edge of the x7 mirror isn't there just for decoration.


Buffeting due to weird geometry features isn't uncommon. The weird headlight design on the early Nissan leaf is a result of wind noise due to wind interaction with the mirrors. The lights generate a vortex that changes the flow across the mirror body.

 

[saxman242]

Actually you’re wrong about that. Go read up on the A pillar area, especially the area I have circled in my attached picture. It’s the highest area of pressure on the car itself with a conical vortex created that travels up past the window and expands towards the roof. Expands means speeds up, expands means it was also highly pressurized. Expansion also generates noise....wind noise. This is more perceptible because that’s where humans tend to have their ears located. If engineers don’t get this part right, well, you have a Hyundai Palisade. I’ve read WAY to much about this, I suggest you do the same. I was prepared to go to court so I was doing homework. LOL

You're totally incorrect here.

Pressure drops as air accelerates. Gas loses pressure as it expands. The leading edges are high pressure zones, sure, but as the air rolls the corner to the sides of the a pillar and detaches, the pressure falls. The side glass is in a low pressure area.

 

[saxman242]

You must know by now if you don’t share facts I’m going to call you out. Like Bob Baker, 7% off MSRP deals and Yelp ratings that you cull through to make 1 dealer look bad and ignore your own dealer’s ratings. By now this forum knows I’m a straight shooter and your “facts” are suspect. Seriously though saxy go read up on A pillar flow characteristics, it’s absolutely fascinating. Once you know, its almost like the Hyundai Palisade was built to fail. Again sorry I had to call you out on all that but you didn’t have your facts straight.

You mean like when you "called me out" saying I'd never post what dealer I got my car from or post the contract, and then you found I had previously openly posted the dealer and I posted the contract showing I got exactly the deal I openly discussed in detail?

I have looked into a-pillar design as well as aerodynamics in general. I'm an aerospace engineer. This is literally what I do for a living.


In the case of an a pillar, the air compresses as it hits the windshield. It is then accelerated around the a pillar and over the top of the car. This causes localized low pressure areas. This is why you lose traction at high speeds without aerodynamics added to counter. It's also why the door edge seal on the side window is in a low pressure area.

 

[CVP33]

Sorry, go re-read. Condensed air, creating a conical vortex expanding post A-Pillar connotes a prior state of highly pressurized air that expands releasing pressure and noise. We can all go prove this with the 2020 Hyundai Palisade.LOL

1) Please site you’re work as again your facts are always suspect for me,

2) 7% OFF MSRP deals on SEL are neither remarkable nor are they 15% OFF

3) Vilifying Asheville Hyundai by sifting through multiple positive posts to find the 1 bad post is just disingenuous at best, while you selling dealer Bob Baker has a far worse rating. As an engineer I’d expect more qualitative use of facts here. Remember that Asheville Hyundai has hard working people trying to make a living and when you start bending the truth to make yourself look better you could be keeping them from getting a sale they’ve earned.

4) I’m trying to help people save money and you’re trying to tell the that you saved 15% from your crappy dealer Bob Baker, when in fact you got a terrible deal on an SEL with only 7% OFF.

5) If you truly are an engineer then let’s get this thing solved, because Hyundai’s engineers sure can’t.....or won’t.

Bob Baker has a rating of 2.3/5.0 while Asheville Hyundai has a 4.6/5.0 rating. See attached.

Sadly Saxy, I keep calling you out because you seem to struggle with the facts.

 

[saxman242]

Yes, the leading edge of the a pillar (the part where the a pillar meets the windshield) is a high pressure are and as soon as it turns the corner and accelerates, it rapidly loses pressure.




Let's look at the cfd of a typical SUV a pillar. You can see the vortex as it is accelerated around the corner. You definitely will get buffeting from the vortex pressure fluxtuations, but the seal on the side window is not taking the pressure of head-on into 70 mph air as you stated. You are misconstruing buffeting a pressure oscillations due to a vortex with high pressure. These are different things.

That particular image is from a conference presentation in 2013 and was dealing with wiper spray patterns, but it's a good cfd image showing the vortices you're discussing.


As for my deal, I very specifically delineated the pre-incentive 7% discount from the 15% total discount over and over again. I openly posted the contract as well as deal sheets of better deals than mine and have openly discussed those.

While 7% pre-incentive is not the best deal done before or after mine, it's still beyond invoice and through almost all of the holdback. Your claim in the other thread that 15-20% off was reasonable is unfounded, unless you're talking post-incentive and with very specific incentive situations.

You posted a dealer advertising 11% off. I highlighted that dealer's specific fine print stating that that included all incentives offered, again to clearly delineate the difference between a pre-incentive discount and a post-incentive discount, and then posted the first Yelp review that specifically spoke to them bait and switching their advertised prices as it was specifically related to the discussion at hand.


You keep "calling me out" on things, claiming I'm being deceptive, on things that I have been extremely open about. To try to say that I have hidden anything in my deal details is nothing more than pure dishonesty.

 

[CVP33]

I’ll take the admission and again, I said it was a high pressure area. You made my night especially coming from an engineer. About time you weighed in using your engineering skillset.

As for your misleading folks about Asheville Hyundai with your previous post. They have a great deal right now on a Palisade. I posted the deal. People were looking for a good deal from a good dealer. I gave them a deal from a dealer with a 4.6 rating and you used 1 bad review to vilify them while bragging about your crappy dealer with a 2.3 rating. That’s just not being honest and you may have dissuaded someone from getting to work with a great group of people.

Just for a moment Saxy consider that the people working at Asheville Hyundai are working hard for their 4.6 rating and trying to earn their business. Times are tough and cars just aren’t selling. Along comes someone like you, who misleads the forum, and potentially kept Asheville Hyundai from making a sale. That’s just dishonest.

Yes, the leading edge of the a pillar (the part where the a pillar meets the windshield) is a high pressure are and as soon as it turns the corner and accelerates, it rapidly loses pressure.

 

[saxman242]

I didn't admit to what you think I admitted to. The argument was that the leading door/window seal was in a high pressure area. It is not, it is in a low pressure area. The leading edge of the a pillar is in a high pressure area. The door/window seal is not at the leading edge of the a-pillar. As the air turns the corner of the a-pillar from the front of the car to the side of the car, the pressure drops.

Moving the goal posts to something we weren't even discussing and misconstruing what I have said doesn't make you correct here. I'll say it again: the seal on the door/window area you were saying can't withstand the pressure of 70 mph air baring down on it is not seeing that. It is in a low pressure area.




Once again with the Asheville dealer... I posted the Yelp review that spoke specifically to them not honoring their online prices because it was relevant to you posting their online prices. The discussion was about them including incentives I'm that discount, so comparing to discount amounts without incentives is not valid.

They may be perfectly reasonable people and they may not be. I don't know, nor does it matter to the discussion


Stop with the ridiculous strawman arguments.

 

[CVP33]

I won’t move the goal post. The goal is for you to use your engineering skills to:

1) Solve the Palisades wind noise

2) Stay fact-based and stop talking poorly of the hard-working people of Asheville Hyundai. Every dealer has bad reviews in fact your dealers has 100’s.

3) A pillar area is in fact a high pressure area. Go re-read my post regarding the circled area.

FORUM CHALLENGE

Take a picture of your A-pillar area. I’d be very interested to know if yours is as poorly constructed as mine. Frankly the tolerances here are embarrassing for a modern vehicle.

 

[saxman242]

You're the one that brought up the Asheville dealer in the wind noise thread. I'm not running around trash talking them. I posted their disclaimer and one review specific to the conversation on prices in the thread about prices. The fact is their disclaimer states that their advertised discounts include all incentives. That isn't speaking poorly about them.

What you have circled there is the side of the a pillar. That is in a low pressure area. The front of the a pillar, near the windshield is in a high pressure area. As the air turns the corner from the front to the side, the air accelerates from high pressure to low pressure.

Reading studies that you PMed me that don't discuss pressure at all will not change that.


There is nothing in your photo to suggest if that is or isn't out of tolerance. The distance from the painted a pillar to the silver window trim that is filled with a black seal may be larger than on your BMW, but there isn't anything about that that says good or bad if that's within tolerance.

If someone wants to test if that area is the problem, shutting the door and covering the gap from the a pillar to the window seal with painters tape and then driving the car would be a good data point. Obviously you'd need someone else to tape you in or climb over the console from the passenger side.

 

[CVP33]

Here would be my advice........don’t buy one until they figure this out. I’m actually not confident that Hyundai/Kia aren’t living up to their bad ol’ days.

 

[steelers]

Actually you’re wrong about that. Go read up on the A pillar area, especially the area I have circled in my attached picture. It’s the highest area of pressure on the car itself with a conical vortex created that travels up past the window and expands towards the roof. Expands means speeds up, expands means it was also highly pressurized. Expansion also generates noise....wind noise. This is more perceptible because that’s where humans tend to have their ears located. If engineers don’t get this part right, well, you have a Hyundai Palisade. I’ve read WAY to much about this, I suggest you do the same. I was prepared to go to court so I was doing homework. LOL

You must know by now if you don’t share facts I’m going to call you out. Like Bob Baker, 7% off MSRP deals and Yelp ratings that you cull through to make 1 dealer look bad and ignore your own dealer’s ratings. By now this forum knows I’m a straight shooter and your “facts” are suspect. Seriously though saxy go read up on A pillar flow characteristics, it’s absolutely fascinating. Once you know, its almost like the Hyundai Palisade was built to fail. Again sorry I had to call you out on all that but you didn’t have your facts straight.

Now for a prediction. Hyundai is not going to fix the wind noise for any existing owners of 2020 Palisades. 2021‘s should have the fix, whatever it is, 2020 owners are goosed. There’s no way I could know this, but now that it’s out there in the ether, I’ll come back in 6 months and see if I’m right.

Agree 100% with your closing paragraph. I have expressed the same scenario more than once on this forum. I have also suggested that some on this forum may not be worthy of a response.

 

[Eric2203]

You must know by now if you don’t share facts I’m going to call you out.

You mean like when you post "facts" like an over-inflated count of TSBs for the Palisade, conveniently ignoring that most are procedural in nature and cover multiple Hyundai models? Or "facts" like you saying that Hyundai engineers don't know what they're doing?

It's incredible how you're able to post well-informed and reasonable posts one day, then go way overboard the next by attacking everyone who disagrees with you and twisting what they say. You've done it to me and you're doing it to Sax now.

By the way, maybe you should read the link below: BMW X7 wind noise from side mirror. They're not immune either. And while that may not be as widespread an issue on the X7 as it is on the Palisade, it's also not a problem on every Palisade either. With well over 50k Palisades in the US today, it's pretty clear that a lot of people are not experiencing the issue. This forum is a tiny subset of owners, far from being representative of everyone's experience. I don't have a wind noise problem on my Palisade.

BMW X7 forum post about wind noise:

whistling noise on driver side

whistling noise on driver side

g07.bimmerpost.com

 

[steelers]

My car was built on July 2, 2019, long before this issue was known, and has that foam. It was always there. Nobody’s trying to hide anything...

So you have an inside factory source that confirmed the wind noise was unknown in July 2019. Just because it does not make to this forum does not mean it is unknown .

 

[Eric2203]

So you have an inside factory source that confirmed the wind noise was unknown in July 2019. Just because it does not make to this forum does not mean it is unknown .

Huh? WTF are you talking about? I'm saying I have the foam in an earlier build. I've yet to see an owner claim that they don't have that foam in the window channel. The foam they added in the TSB goes in the A-pillar, not the window channel. And I'm not taking mine apart to check whether I have it.

I don't have a factory source. No idea where that even came from. You're peddling conspiracy theories now too?

 

[CVP33]

I think it’s pretty telling that BMW solved their issues and Hyundai just can’t seem to

 

[saxman242]

You mean like when you post "facts" like an over-inflated count of TSBs for the Palisade, conveniently ignoring that most are procedural in nature and cover multiple Hyundai models? Or "facts" like you saying that Hyundai engineers don't know what they're doing?

It's incredible how you're able to post well-informed and reasonable posts one day, then go way overboard the next by attacking everyone who disagrees with you and twisting what they say. You've done it to me and you're doing it to Sax now.

By the way, maybe you should read the link below: BMW X7 wind noise from side mirror. They're not immune either. And while that may not be as widespread an issue on the X7 as it is on the Palisade, it's also not a problem on every Palisade either. With well over 50k Palisades in the US today, it's pretty clear that a lot of people are not experiencing the issue. This forum is a tiny subset of owners, far from being representative of everyone's experience. I don't have a wind noise problem on my Palisade.

BMW X7 forum post about wind noise:

whistling noise on driver side

whistling noise on driver side

g07.bimmerpost.com

Can you imagine spending $90k on a car and having to solve the wind noise by putting tape over the gaps and then the dealer trying to fix it by putting foam in the mirror?




In all seriousness, I'd love to see a similar test performed on a palisade with wind noise to see if the mirror pivot hinge is the/a issue. Air channeling through a poor seal there could get down into the door cavity potentially and cause burping of the seals as the car tries to equalize.

 

[Eric2203]

I think it’s pretty telling that BMW solved their issues and Hyundai just can’t seem to

But you don't know that though. The fact that the world has been shut down pretty much since they pulled the TSB (South Korea's virus problems started sooner than in the US) means that testing any kind of fix has been a lot harder. Not impossible, granted, but it's hard to blame any company, Hyundai or otherwise, for being delayed by recent events.

That being said, I do hope they come up with a solution for affected owners. I'm just not ready to claim that they've given up or don't know how to do it. Yet.

 

[raggedy1]

I've now driven my Palisade up to 80mph with the foam rope in place, but only in the one inner window cavity (A pillar up and over down to the B pillar).

I haven't experienced the intermittent whistling. I do notice a wind buffeting at 60mph and up. I only notice it when the recirculation mode is open and I have no radio/stereo on. I feel like it's no louder than my Odyssey or Sonata (the Odyssey road noise drowns out everything!). The Palisade is so quiet that it becomes easy to focus on any wind noises.

It's not enough to detract from my enjoyment of the Palisade or cause me any regrets. Yet. I know some of you have had your wind noise issues get much worse with more time and miles on the car. So far I only have 1100 miles.

 

[CVP33]

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